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[ Well, that certainly got his attention. Good. ]

mike told me about you. i'm looking for someone who might be able to give me some insight on the god situation

and no, i don't want to join them. i want to mess with their plans

[...]

fine
the network isn't hidden from prying eyes
choose a place

[Actually, Stocke hasn't known the Fourth God to notice - or at least, lash out against - previous heresies, but he'd still like to see who this is before anything else.]

i'll let you choose since i'm the one who needs your help

alright
[Bavan, then. That'll be easiest. Why not...]

[He names a street intersection.]

i'll be there in four hours
[It'll actually only take him three to disentangle himself here and get there, from Djävulenstad - but Stocke's going to offset an ambush in case that's what this is. He'll check the place early.]

[He is there, as promised, four hours from his message - or, if Rin indicated needing more time, however long that takes. It's dark, and the way the shade's eyes snap up to follow anyone passing by is easily evident.]

[The intersection in particular is just in a front of a certain formerly-corrupted television station. It probably wasn't an entirely conscious choice, just the first thing that came to mind, but Stocke definitely thinks of the conduits when he's reminded of his attempt to bomb Dyster.]

[ Rin decides to take the meeting in his least intimidating form, his travel form. So he waits on the sign for intersection, preening his feathers meticulously until he spies Stocke coming around the corner. Shades have the knack of freaking him out, just from their glowing eyes and wispy forms, so he's glad his hawk form makes it much harder to tell how he's feeling. Which is slightly more jumpy and annoyed than usual, given their proximity to the station.

He realizes, in retrospect, he probably came across too strongly to a guy who seems well acquainted with subterfuge. He shouldn't be too surprised that Stocke is wary in how he approaches the situation. But it had served the purpose of getting the shade's immediate attention so it wasn't a totally botched effort. Too bad, Stocke probably now thinks he's some Elias lackey. ]

Couldn't you have chosen some place less likely to catch the attention of those idiots?

[The shade tenses, gaze snapping to the hawk. But he approaches without hesitating.]

[Whether Rin means the humans or Elias's followers is... mostly immaterial. Stocke's confident that neither of them are quite attentive enough - plenty of other monsters pass this way, just by virtue of being residents of the city. But yeah, they don't need to hang around.]

You asked me to choose. [Dry. He jerks his head in one direction, a silent indication of 'let's move;' they can talk without staying in one place, and he knows some roads which have a distinct, deliberate lack of attention. Perks of being involved in the underground for Greed's business.]

God situation, [the shade prompts. What is it Rin wanted to know?]

[Actually, wait a moment, wait a moment. Hasn't he seen this bird before? He could swear...]

[But he can't pull up the memory now.]

[ Rin takes off from his perch to flap beside Stocke. He could snap back at him, but his goal here is information, not pissing Stocke off further. ]

I want to establish a neutral division. But it would need to be able to offer something people couldn't get through Elia and the Fog Bitch. Or at least something on even ground with their gifts.

[ He spits out the last word with all the venom he can manage. ]

I know you've been in deep with one of them. So I was hoping you had some insight on what could counter that side.

[Stocke watches Rin for a short moment, unblinking. Considering?]

Both of them. [Short and abrupt. He's been in with both.] I can tell you more of Elias's - I was there longer.

[And that's true. But he's also testing, again - if Rin got his information through Mike, it'd be the infiltration of the Fog he's talking about. Is he truly interested in both?]

[ Rin throws back his head haughtily, his old vendetta against Elias kicking back into gear. Mike hadn't mentioned anything about Fourth infiltration. Must have happened outside of his circles. Well, this suits Rin just fine. ]

Good. I'd rather hear about him first.

[Again, there's a pause. Stocke's tendrils twine at his back. Then he looks away, and while he doesn't speak immediately, it's clear he's gathering his thoughts.]

He can't read minds. Neither of them can, nor see everything that happens, though they know what they pay attention to. It's why we can speak like this without being struck down.

It's more a weakness for him - he used to be human, and as I understand it, he was locked away for thirty years. What he is is no longer a child, [Stocke is cold on that matter, unforgiving,] but he's not had the time to learn how to deal with others. I wouldn't be surprised if he were easy to manipulate.

His followers - [Stocke's arms cross, claws tapping against one elbow for a moment.] - last I heard, he had two priests. He counts them his best assets. Neither of them are combatants, or especially wary - one of them's as near as being a death-seeker by now.

[For a moment Stocke hesitates. There's something else he knows about Marco... but no, for now he'll decide it's not relevant.] Killing them won't do much, with his protection, but restraining them could take them out of commission. Making sure he can't see through their eyes and destroying anything electronic near them to be safe. The same's true of any of his followers - to be truthful, I'd be more wary of those lower down that are combatants, or tricksters, and can use what he gives them. His two are clever, but they're builders - I don't believe they work well on the spot.

Were I planning a full assault, I'd take out as many of his as I could while avoiding his attention, steal their keys, then hit the Arcade. It's speculation, but... there must be something there that'd harm him to destroy. Or the Fog God wouldn't have...

[He trails off, thinking. Finally, he adds -] You won't get anything to match the gods' gifts without Mana. [Or the other god.] But individual abilities can be countered mundanely.

[ Rin's hawk eyes seem to glint with an unnatural light at the explanation of Elias' past. ]

If he's not a child, why does he present himself as one? He uses that guise to trick young children into joining him. He already has two particularly young ones on his side. They're convinced he's their best friend. It's disgusting what they've done for him, thinking it will help him.

And his priests...

[ Rin throws back his head and gives an angry flap of his wings since he doesn't want to risk his angry screech. ]

Yet more people he uses to the point of insanity.

[ But his agitated flapping dies down as Stocke continues and he grows quiet for a bit, seeming to hang back slightly. He waits until Stocke is finished before he speaks again, voice clearly shaken. Did Stocke really think that he wanted to attack Marco and the others? As much as he's furious with their blind faith and devotion, Rin still hates the idea of hurting anyone in cold blood. ]

... I don't want to hurt anyone. I want to weaken their power by reducing their ability to grow their ranks. I want to be able to offer people a reason to refuse them, something that makes their gifts seem unnecessary.

He thinks himself a child. I wouldn't call him one.

[Stocke himself looks faintly startled at the second response - tendrils stilling - though perhaps not shaken like Rin. Something... unexpected, but not truly throwing him off his stride.]

[Finally:] ...that's commendable of you. Yet...

[Set everything about how he's already at war aside (and Stocke was always a knife at the back, anyway, not a persuasive voice at the front). It's not a terrible approach, to pull away followers instead of going to war on the lower scale, even if you'd need to go to war with the gods themselves eventually anyway.]

[But as much as Stocke would like to support it -] It's not their gifts you need to worry about. [Not as he sees it.] The ones who join them for power - you could pull them, with larger temptations, though outplaying the gods would be difficult. But those are few and far between. I think it's the ones who join for other reasons you're talking about, aren't you?

[Stocke looks away, if only for a second, eyes dimming.] On her side - those who join the Fog do so out of gratitude, usually. Mike excepted. For giving them freedom, for pulling them from somewhere worse. That kind of devotion is hard to counteract.

And his - you'd need to give them a reason to hope, one more compelling than he does. They join him because he has power to match hers, and can promise a way out. Someday. Desperation means it doesn't matter how much he lies; for those you'd need a greater hope to lure them away.

[None of those are things they can offer as neutrals. Stocke's not entirely sure he wouldn't have been the Fourth's himself, long ago, if not for Greed.]

[ Rin slashes at the air with his talons. ]

Artificial hope that comes at the expense of others is bullshit. I can't believe none of them see it yet. After everything he's done that's hurt us.

[ But the stuff about the Fog, Stocke is right that that level of gratitude would be hard to break. What can they offer anyone in terms of escaping from the world they know? ]

Mike joined because he was tired of not being able to do anything.

Anyway, there must be something we can offer people that neither of them can. Paul mentioned something about a sense of community, of people who would have each other's backs and protect each other. From what I've seen, most of them are devoted to the god and less to fellow followers. Can't we exploit that?

[For someone who knew Stocke better, was able to read him easier, there'd be something bitterly amused in his expression. All he says, though, is:] People have done worse for hope. So long as there's a stronger chance for a good end, whatever the means... that would justify it for them.

[He knows he has. Nothing compared to the Fourth, simply because he's no god with a god's power, but worse than the Fourth's followers? He wouldn't be surprised.]

[Meanwhile, Rin - or Paul? - is surprisingly on point. Stocke's sense of irony intensifies, a little less bitterly.] If something large scale existed - it'd do a lot to keep people from their ranks. [That's basically what the Nest is, isn't it? It's just the Nest isn't right for everyone.] Exploiting it for those who are already there -

[Hmm.] For the Fourth, at least, I can testify to that. There are those who're friends outside the Arcade, but there was no organized support.

I can't say it'd be enough to pull them out, though, unless you built enough devotion to sever them. They've gone this long the same way.

That doesn't explain the younger ones who continue to agree to the worst of it.

[ Yeah, Rin might be hung up on his concerns over Reira and Ron.

But his brow rises at the next part. ]

You're saying something like that already exists on a small scale? I've never heard of it. The closest was maybe that stuff Percy was trying to do with the hotel.

And I know trimming their ranks is going to be a long process. But we could start with just keeping more people from joining, cut down on their fresh blood. That way, at least they can't keep getting more powerful. To the point where they're making new monsters or exploiting people as soon as they arrive.

[Doesn't it? The young are far more easily manipulated than adults, as Stocke sees it. He's content to keep his silence, there, though.]

...not one that'd be advertised as what you picture. [But yes. Something does exist. Stocke chooses not to elaborate, unless Rin pushes - if he's so shaken by the thought of harming others, then a criminal town's probably not what he wants.]

[And yet, somehow, it's worked for Stocke.]

[He inclines his head.] Then you have your answer. What would counter them, without hurting their followers.

[Now the question is...] ...I've seen attempts to start groups rise and fall, through years here. I think a lot of us here are jaded to them. You'll still need something more to draw people in the first place.

[ Yeah no, Rin would probably not fair well with the criminal-minded. ]

Yeah, that's what I'm most worried about. That's why I wanted to find someone who's been here for a long while. Why the groups have fallen in the past? What would I need to pull in others?

[The first question is easy to answer.] Lack of... continuity. I saw them all drop apart as the people who were behind them disappeared and they were left without support - Enjolras. Your Percy. [Others. Most of whom he heard on the network.]

For all the gods do - they are constant.

Build something with enough momentum, and it'll survive you. But I've yet to see a group get that far.

[Perhaps because - Stocke's words turn wry.] If I knew what would work, I'd use it myself.

[ Rin manages to look as resolute as a bird can get. The sharp tone of his voice does the rest. ]

I'm not a quitter. Once I start something, I follow it through.

[ He pauses, as Stocke's words remind him of something else he meant to ask. ]

Mike didn't really go into details of your infiltration. What did you do and what were you trying to get out of it?

[Stocke shakes his head.] And if you disappear? [That's what he meant. It was always the people trying to build them vanishing - and then, as the old monsters among them grew more and more jaded to such attempts - having trouble even recruiting.]

[Not that he's trying to discourage Rin. But that is Rin's answer - why did they fall apart?]

[- ah.]

[Stocke's tendrils jag, faintly.] ...we've been here this long without finding any way to harm her. Affect her at all. I wanted to see if hitting her version of Dyster would do anything.

I set it aflame.

[Or blew it up. Semantics.]

That won't happen.

[ He says it, as if he had any hope of preventing it through sheer will. He even snaps his beak loudly for good measure.

His eyes turn more intense with Stocke's confession. Despite his aversion to hurt others, Rin has no love lost for Dyster and its warped society. ]

And? Did it affect her at all?

She was furious. That much I can say.

[Stocke's eyes drop to a dim, barely-lit glow - then, abruptly, flare brighter than before. Whatever emotion this conveys, it doesn't reflect in his voice; that's unchanged.]

I've not heard from Mike of irreparable damage. It may be that I only just missed something that scared her. Or it may have been simply the insult.

Would Mike share that with you? I mean, I know he's not super-devoted to her. But he's still a follower?

[ Rin trusts Mike not to completely screw people over, unlike most followers. But he also knows that Mike is naturally loyal when someone does him a solid. ]

I have more reason to trust Mike's word than I trust yours. [Dry. He's not intending that to be mean, but...]

[Stocke isn't always the most diplomatic.]

[It's still a valid enough question, despite that. But Stocke's shaking his head.] ...I don't think he'd be able to hide it, even if he wanted to.

[Permanent damage to the Fog God would be a Big Deal.]

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